Yet Another OSR Skill System

A thought has been bouncing around my skull for a bit and I'm curious if it's ever been brought up?

The idea was inspired by ADnD 2E's Saving Throw Priority system.

Essentially, if a task comes up, the DM assigns difficulty by having the player's roll against their best Saving Throw (lowest) or their worst Saving Throw (highest).

The DM could decide that if a task falls within a character's class or background, they use the lowest Saving Throw and if it falls outside those parameters, they use highest saving throw. Essentially, creating a Trained and Untrained target number.

E.G. A 1st level Cleric has Breath Attacks at 16, Poison or Death at 11, Petryify or Paralyze at 14, Wands at 12, and Spells or Spell-like Devices at 14. Their Trained Save would be 11 and their Untrained Save would be 16.

You could even abandon Thief Ability percentages in favor of this system.

Has anyone employed something similar to this or seen it written about?

OSR: The Luck and Expertise of Thieves

I've spent the day doing two things, rereading the excellent BX Essentials PDFs from Necrotic Gnome Press and contemplating the Thief class.

I've read over numerous excellent blogposts on different solutions, while also contemplating my expectations of the class.

The base percentage chance of Thief Abilities really strike me as pretty low at low levels.

I've been contemplating two different solutions.

Solution 1 is to take a page out of HackMaster 5th Edition and introduce Luck points. Each Luck point could be spent to adjust a Saving Throw by -1, increase their AC against a single attack by -1, or if using Thief Abilities adjust an Ability roll by -5% and may be spent AFTER the roll.

E.G. Robairt the Masque has a Pick Pockets of 25%, but rolls a 35, he decides to spend 2 Luck Points to lower the roll to 25 and succeed.

A 1st level thief has 2 Luck points per day at level 1 and gains 1 Luck point per day at each level.

Solution 2 takes a page out of the GUMSHOE system. You would drop the percentage chance of each Thief Ability. The Thief would have a pool of Expertise per day. When a situation arose the Thief could choose to spend Expertise to Hide in Shadow, Hear Noise, Pick Pockets, etc. If the situation was difficult enough, the DM could even require Expertise expenditures of 2+.

E.G. Monica Renquist is trying to Hide in Shadows from several orcs coming through a passage towards her. The DM sets the Expertise at 2, which she spends and the orcs don't notice her as they pass by.

A 1st level Thief has 2 Expertise per day at level 1 and gains 1 Expertise per day at each odd level.

Feedback is ALWAYS appreciated.

OSR: Expansion of the Turn Undead Table = Skill System [UPDATED]

Yesterday, I posted a thought experiment using the DnD/OSR Turn Undead table as a Skill System and I had some feedback that perhaps I could give some examples and which led me to make some changes.

I decided to provide two examples, one based on the Labyrinth Lord's Turn Undead table (2d6 based) and one based on the Adventurer, Conqueror, King Turn Undead table (1d20 based).

First though, in yesterday's post, my assumption was that Thieves, or classes with percentage skills, would get to roll those skills first and if they failed, they could use this system. Due to feedback, I've changed my mind and by default, percentage skills (or any Class with Specific Skills in ACKS) are not used. Instead if Class Skill applies, it increases your Character Level by +2.

Labyrinth Lord
Go to page 9 of LL for the Turn Undead table.

Cleric Level becomes Character's Level.

A Character's Level is their actual Level. They gain a +1 to their Level if they have an applicable Background or Non-Weapon Proficiency. They also gain a +2 if they have a Class Skill that covers the task, such as a Thief's Climb Wall when climbing walls. The DM selects the appropriate Ability for the task and the appropriate modifier is applied (positive or negative). The DM may apply any modifier they deem appropriate, including a +1 to +2 for the Player's description of what they are trying to do.

CL = Actual Level + Background/NWP (+1 if applicable) + Appropriate Class skill (+2 if applicable) + Ability Modifier + DM Modifiers.

The DM also Decides the Difficulty of the task using the Undead HD portion of the table, thus assigning  a 1 to 10 (or Infernal).

For the Example: Solomon is a 4th level Thief, with a Dexterity of 14. He is attempting to climb a wall (a thief skill). 

His Character Level is 7 (Level of 4 +1 for their Dex Mod +2 for Climbing Walls and no bonus from Background or NWP).

The DM has set the Difficulty at 8 or 8HD (it's raining and the wall is very slick) and Solomon needs a 9+ on 2d6 to succeed. 

If you get a Target Number of "-" it means the situation is impossible for you.

Any Target Number of "T" or "D" on the Chart results in an automatic success, with no roll required.

Adventure, Conqueror, King System
(See Below for a d20 table stolen from the Basic Fantasy RPG)
Go to page 22 of ACKS for the Turn Undead table.

Cleric Level becomes Character's Level.

A Character's Level is their actual Level. They gain a +1 to their Level if they have an applicable Proficiency and an additional +1 for each time it is improved. Any class with specific skills gains a +2 to their Level if their task is covered by one of those skills. The DM selects the appropriate Ability for the task and the appropriate modifier is applied (positive or negative). The DM may apply any modifier they deem appropriate, including a +1 to +2 for the Player's description of what they are trying to do.

CL = Actual Level + Proficiency (+1 or more if applicable) + Appropriate Class Skill (+2) + Ability Modifier + DM Modifiers.

The DM also Decides the Difficulty of the task using the Undead Type portion of the table. ACKS uses specific undead instead of HD, but the scale is 1 (Skeleton) to 9 (Infernal) this time.

For this Example: Teela is a 6th level Fighter, with a Strength of 17. She is attempting to pry open a door. 

Her Character Level is 9 (Level of 6 + a Str Mod of +2 and a +1 bonus from the Dungeon Bashing Proficiency).

The DM has set the Difficulty at Mummy or 6 and Teela gets a Target Number of "T" or an automatic success. If the DM has set it at Infernal or 9, she would need a 10 or better on a D20 roll.

If you get a Target Number of "-" it means the situation is impossible for you.

Also, any Target Number of "D" on the Chart results in an automatic success, with no roll required.

Turn Undead Table 
(Uses a d20 and stolen from the Basic Fantasy RPG)

Cleric                            Hit Die of Undead

Level     1     2      3     4     5       6      7      8      9+
1           13   17    19   No  No     No   No   No   No
2           11   15    18   20   No     No   No   No   No
3            9    13    17   19   No     No   No   No   No
4            7    11    15   18    20     No   No   No   No
5            5     9     13   17    19     No   No   No   No 
6            3     7     11   15    18     20    No   No   No 
7            2     5      9    13    17     19    No   No   No 
8            T     3      7    11    15     18    20    No   No 
9            T     2      5     9     13     17    19    No   No   
10          T     T      3     7     11     15    18    20    No 
11          D     T      2     5      9      13    17    19    No
12          D     T     T     3       7      11    15    18    20

13          D     D     T     2      5        9    13    17    19 

14          D     D     T     T      3       7     11    15    18

15               D     D     D     T     2        5      9    13     17     

16          D     D     D     T     T        3      7    11     15  

17               D     D     D     D     T       2       5     9      13 

18               D     D     D     D     T       T       3     7      11 

19               D     D     D     D     D       T      2      5       9

20               D     D     D     D     D       T      T      3       7 

Blast From the Past: Using OSR Turn Undead Tables as a Skill System

I think the Turn Undead Table in Labyrinth Lord (or any early version of DnD or it's retroclones) would make an excellent Skill System.

A Background or Non-Weapon Proficiency increases your level by 2 for use on the Table.

Any Ability Score modifiers adjust your level by the appropriate amount.

Find your modified level, cross reference it with the Threat Level of the Task and look for Automatic Success, a Target Number or Automatic Failure.

Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

Thieves would get to roll their Thief Skill percentage first, if they fail they may try to roll on the Skill Resolution Table.  Essentially, Thief Skills can be thought of as an extra chance at success or a chance to critically succeed.

OSR: A Skill System

While building monsters for Kevin Crawford's excellent Silent Legions, I saw that a monster's save is 15 - HD (round up).  This inspired an idea for a skill system for early editions of DnD and the rest of the OSR.

Essentially, each Ability score will have an Ability Throw equal to 15 - 1/2 the Ability score (round down). To make an Ability Throw, simply roll equal to or above the Save.
E.G. Thaniel Dusk, a 3rd level Thief has a DEX of 13; his Ability Throw for DEX is 15 - 6 = 9.

I know that rolling under an ability score is very straightforward but, but I like that it is a roll high mechanic.

Labyrinth Lord: Thief Class

I've spent the last several days talking about Thieves and here is my revised version for Labyrinth Lord.

Thief

Requirements: None

Prime Requisite: DEX

Hit Dice: 1d4

Maximum Level: None

Thief Abilities: Thieves are Trained*in Climb Walls, Find and Remove Traps, Hear Noise, Hide In Shadows, Move Silently, Pick Locks, Pick Pockets, Read Languages, and Use an Arcane Spell Scroll. This means that if a Thief is not high enough of a Level to automatically succeed at a task, they will used the Trained portion of the following table for these actions.

Level of the Task                 No Training          Trained
                                                 # on D6              # on D6
1-4                                              1-3                      1-5         
5-9                                              1-2                      1-4
10-12                                            1                       1-3
13+                                               -                        1-2

*If using the Ability Score Based Optional system here, then a Thief improves their chance of success by +25%.

Additional Abilities

When a thief attains Level 9 he can establish a thief den, and 2d6 thief apprentices of 1st level will come to work with the character. These thieves will serve the character with some reliability; however, should any become arrested or killed the character will not be able to attract more followers of this type to replace them. A successful character might use these followers to start a ThievesÊ Guild.

Saving Throws

              Breath     Poison      Petrify or                    Spell-Like   

Level     Attack    or Death    Paralyze      Wands      Devices   

 1-3          14             10               11                  10              13

 4-6          11               8                 9                    8              10

 7-9            5               3                 5                    4                6

OSR: A Task Resolution Mechanic Focusing on Level

Earlier this week I proposed a Task Resolution Mechanic that could replace Thieves' Skills and any other tasks the player's might undertake using Ability Scores, but today I'm proposing the same thing using Class Level.

The basic mechanic is that when a task occurs the DM decides upon a minimum Level for a Class (or Classes) for the Task to automatically succeed and the Difficulty of the Task if an automatic success is not possible.

When an obstacle presents itself, the DM first needs to set the appropriate Class(es) and minimum Level(s) to overcome the obstacle automatically. An important factor to keep in mind is the different experience points needed for different classes to gain levels. In many ways, the minimum Level will come down to deciding if a you want a player to automatically succeed.

Then the DM needs to set a Difficulty that is represented in # on a d6 roll.

I've worked up an optional Table* for the DM to use:

Level of the Challenge        No Training          Training
                                                 # on D6              # on D6
1-4                                              1-3                      1-5         
5-9                                              1-2                      1-4
10-12                                            1                       1-3
13+                                               -                        1-2
                                            
The DM also has the option of ruling that the necessary equipment is required for any situation.


Let's say a party is trying to sneak past a sleeping minotaur. The DM decides that a Thief of Level 5+ can do this automatically. Since Thief's are Trained in Move Silently, if their level is 4 or less, they can attempt this on a 1-4 on a d6 roll. Any other character can attempt this on a 1-3 on a d6 roll.

This can easily be extended to other challenges, for instance a Wizard trying to recognize useful items or spell ingredients from an  ancient lab (Wizard Level of 8+/Training 1-4/No Training 1-2).

Thoughts?


*This the the Labyrinth Lord Hear Noise table flipped.

OSR: A Task Resolution System based on Ability Scores

In my exploration of adjusting the niche of Thieves in OSR games here and here, I inadvertently stumbled upon the kernel of an idea for a Task Resolution Mechanic that could replace Thieves' Skills and any other task the player's might undertake.

The basic mechanic is that when a task occurs the DM decides upon a minimum Ability Score for the Task to automatically succeed, if it that automatic success is only available to a certain class or classes, and the Difficulty of the Task if an automatic success is not possible.

When an obstacle presents itself, the DM needs to choose the appropriate Ability Score and the minimum score necessary to overcome the obstacle automatically. 

The Ability Score tiers are 13 (Challenging), 16 (Difficult), and 18 (Hard) mapping to the ranges of bonuses in Labyrinth Lord and other OSR games.  I feel that anything between 9 and 12 shouldn't require much effort, personally.

Then the DM needs to set a Difficulty Class if no one has that minimum Ability Score. The DC's* are 6+, 11+, or 16+. No Ability Score modifier is added to this roll. At this point Class Features like Thief Skills or appropriate backgrounds give the character a +5 to the roll. A 1 creates either a failure or an additional complication. The DM is free to decide a Task Check is impossible for a character, but may at their option, require a Natural 20 on the roll to succeed.

The DM also has the option of ruling that the necessary equipment is required for any situation.

So let's say a party of adventurers encounter a locked chest. The DM has decided that a character with an Intelligence Score of 16+ can Find and Remove the trap on the chest; if no character has an Int that high, the task requires a d20 roll of 16+ to succeed. However if a Thief is in the party, their Find and Remove Trap class feature gives them a +5 to the roll. 

Next the party is trying to open the chest, which requires a Dexterity Score of 13+ to automatically succeed; if no character has a Dex that high, the task has a DC of 11+ to succeed. If there is a Thief in the party, their Pick Locks class feature gives them a +5 to the roll.

This can easily be extended to other challenges, for instance a door requires a Strength Score of 18+ or a DC of 16+, and the DM allows a Fighter to have a +5 to the roll. Or the party finds a strange idol that requires an Intelligence of 16+ or a DC of 11+, and the DM allows a Cleric to have a +5 on the roll.

Thoughts?


*I stole these DCs from 13th Age.

OSR: Expanding My Thoughts on Thieves

I was pleasantly surprised to see the number of views I've gotten on my previous post about Thieves in less than 24 hours. And I've had some good feedback to carry my thoughts forward.

As for why Thieves would be good at Saves vs. Magic, my argument is that it is both a natural evolution from their ability to use Scrolls and ties into the archetype of the Grey Mouser.

This notion about Saving throws being the niche for Thieves came about because of time I've spent pondering the excellent Lamentations of the Flame Princess and it's classes. The first time I read that only Fighter in James Raggi's game got better at their to-hit rolls, my mind reeled and I immediately shut the notion down as nonsense. But then I began to think about it and I saw how it very squarely made fighting their central trait and protected it. It was similar thinking that made me look at Thieves gaining a similar spotlight with Saving Throws.

At the moment as I brainstorm these ideas, my assumption is that any class can attempt to overcome any mundane obstacle or challenge. The Saving Throw idea either removes the notion of Thieves' Skills from the game or forces another resolution system. Right now I'm leaning toward stealing on old idea I read many years ago where locks or traps or hiding difficulties would now be set by the DM, the obstacle would have minimum Class Level which the Thief automatically succeeds at or an X in d6 chance any character need to succeed. For example, the party has found a chest that is locked. To determine it is trapped requires a Thief Level of 4+ or a 1 in d6 chance. To pick requires a Thief Level of 2+ or a 3 in d6 chance. If a Thief of the necessary Level or higher is in the party, they automatically succeed, if not any character has a chance to accomplish this.

This system could be further expanded toward bashing down doors, areas of knowledge, or any task resolution. Perhaps, the door in a dungeon requires a Fighter Level 2+ or a 3 in d6 chance or deciphering the script of an ancient tome requires a Wizard Level 3+, Cleric Level 5+, or a 2 in d6 chance.

I'm even exploring an option that would use Attributes as the minimum threshold instead of Class Level. In that case the chest the party discovers from above requires a Thief of Dexterity 11+, any character with a Dexterity of 14+, or a 1 in d6 chance. One of the reasons I'm exploring this design space is to emphasize Ability scores more directly in older DnD editions and some OSR games.

Again any thoughts would be appreciated and I intend to explore this area in some future games as well as here on Cross Planes.

OSR: Thoughts on Thieves

Something I've been pondering about OSR rules is why don't Theives have the best Saving Throws? 

Wouldn't that have been a good alternative to Thief Skills?

It's something I've been thinking about recently and in many ways I think Saves could be thought of as "skill checks", sure perhaps you won't die or be paralyzed or poisoned, but if there is no consequence to a "skill check", like a Save, then what was the point of it?

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Hackable: An Alternative Skill System for AD&D 2nd Edition

The other day I had a brainstorm to replace Non-Weapon Proficiencies and Thief Skills in ADnD 2E.

Basically you adapt the THAC0 combat system to skill checks.

Thieves, Rangers, and Bards would have there Skills advance at the same level as Warrior's THAC0.

Having a Non-Weapon Proficiency from your class's group would advance at the same level as Priest's THAC0.

Having a Non-Weapon Proficiency from a group outside of your class would advance at the same level as a Rogue's THAC0 (this also replaces NWP's cost extra).

Having no Non-Weapon Proficiency would advance at the same level as a Wizard's THAC0.

Most Difficulty Classes would be 10, 5, 0, -5, remember that DC goes down the more difficult it is.

OSR: Using the Turn Undead Table for Skill Resoultion

I apologize if this has been talked about or proposed before (I assume it has, but don't recall it).

I think the Turn Undead Table in Labyrinth Lord (or any early version of DnD or it's retroclones) would make an excellent skeleton for Skill Resolution.

Assuming we used Backgrounds and not Non-Weapon Proficiencies:

A Background has the chance to either permit an automatic success or increase your level by 1.

If an appropriate Ability Score is 12 or better, increase your level 1.

Then find your level + modifiers, cross reference by the Threat Level of the Task and look for auto success, a target number on a d20 or automatic failure.

Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

Thieves would get to first roll their Thief Skill Percentage, if they fail they may still try to roll on the Skill Resolution Table.  Essentially, Thief Skills can be thought of as an extra chance at success or a chance to critically succeed.